This article first appeared in Haaretz and is reprinted with permission.
California Governor Gavin Newsom, widely seen as the Democratic frontrunner in 2028 should he run for president, said he does not consider Israel’s war in Gaza a genocide, despite sharply criticizing its conduct and added that he is “not a big fan” of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
Hosting prominent conservative and pro-Israel pundit Ben Shapiro for a conversation on his podcast, This Is Gavin Newsom, published on Friday, the governor and Shapiro discussed, in a segment titled “Israel, Hamas, the devastation of Gaza and criticism of Netanyahu,” a range of topics, including U.S. neo-Nazi Nick Fuentes and New York City Mayor Zohran Mamdani.
After denouncing Fuentes as a “scumbag,” Shapiro said he would continue to be critical of Republicans “who flirt” with antisemitism, adding that Democrats should do the same with sitting members of Congress and with Mamdani, who, according to Shapiro, refused during the mayoral campaign to condemn Hamas as a terrorist organization.
Newsom responded: “They are a terrorist group and should have been announced… I was there a few weeks after October 7,” adding that he met with Netanyahu while noting, “not a big fan of Bibi, and we have fundamental differences.”
Shapiro argued that accusing Israel of committing genocide in Gaza has become a “de rigueur requirement” for running for office, citing California Democrat Scott Wiener, who labeled it as such last week. Shapiro asked Newsom whether he believed Israel had committed genocide in Gaza.
The governor responded that he understands “the tendency for people to make that assertion,” based on the images coming out of Gaza. “Ugly shit doesn’t mean genocide,” Shapiro replied.
Newsom answered: “I don’t know the definition or the legal threshold, that’s not my opinion,” and “I don’t agree with that notion.”
He added that he was not granting legitimacy to claims of genocide, but said, “I’m just saying the devastation in Gaza at the human level…. I think it’s important to absorb that a bit more, just as it was sick and we were clear in our condemnation… of what Hamas did in that act of barbarism and terrorism,” referring to the October 7 attack.
Shapiro said there is a difference between deliberate terrorism and wartime collateral damage. Newsom replied, “it wasn’t just collateral,” and when pressed on whether Israel was targeting civilians, the governor pointed to “double-tapping” strikes by the Israeli army.
The governor added, “I have a lot of issues with how Bibi ultimately conducted the war, I personally do. And I have a lot of issues that are also painted on the basis of the conversation I had with him a few weeks after October 7, and the way he talked about Palestinians. I kept talking about Hamas, he kept talking about Palestinians. I kept coming back to Hamas and then ultimately how the war was conducted. Not saying it was a genocide, but I have issues.” He also said: “The devastation and destruction break my heart.”
Newsom said that while he is “crystal clear” on Hamas, he added, “I’m also crystal clear about my love for Israel and condemnation of Bibi, and there is a distinction. I condemn Donald Trump. I love my country.”
The governor emphasized that people who criticize Netanyahu are not antisemitic, and said it is important to state this clearly because the two are often conflated. Shapiro acknowledged that he, too, has criticized Netanyahu “for not being right-wing enough,” prompting Newsom to respond: “God bless you, man.” Shapiro added that Netanyahu’s rivals, Naftali Bennett or Yair Lapid, would not have acted differently than Netanyahu in Gaza, to which Newsom replied: “Fair point.”
On the recent protests in Iran, Shapiro lamented that the Democratic Party has not been sufficiently supportive of the protesters amid the Iranian regime’s deadly crackdown. Newsom responded: “I know where I am, I put out a clear statement and I’d like to see more Democrats do so,” adding that the June U.S. strike on Iranian nuclear facilities “was the right thing to do. It was unbelievably effective and efficient.”
On Mamdani, Shapiro cited a 2023 quote in which the then-assemblyman said that “when the boot of the NYPD is on your neck, it’s been laced by the IDF,” to which Newsom responded: “I don’t associate with those comments at all. I mean, and look, he doesn’t speak for me in that respect.”
Newsom, who has served as governor of California since 2019, is seen as a possible frontrunner for the 2028 Democratic presidential nomination, leading, according to a RealClearPolitics poll average, with around 24 percent, ahead of former nominee and Vice President Kamala Harris’ 21 percent.
In addition to Shapiro, Newsom has hosted MAGA firebrands such as Steve Bannon and Charlie Kirk on his podcast. In October, Newsom said he would decide whether to run for president after the 2026 midterm elections in November, adding that he would be “lying” if he said he was not seriously considering a bid.